Do you enjoy your time off?

Do you feel refreshed afterwards?

Or are you more tired than when you started?

In this episode, the humans discuss how to make the most of your time off. Maximizing the enjoyment you get out of it and how refreshed you feel afterwards.

Standard Humans is hosted by Aidan Dennehy and Evan.

Shownotes:

Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi

What is Flow?

Flow Chart Graph

The 5 AM: Own Your Morning. Elevate Your Life. by Robin Sharma

Ultralearning: Master Hard Skills, Outsmart the Competition, and Accelerate Your Career by Scott Young

Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World by Cal Newport

Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work by Matthew B. Crawford

How to Become a Straight-A Student: The Unconventional Strategies Real College Students Use to Score High While Studying Less by Cal Newport

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Evan: I found for off time, I have to like put in effort to have good off time that I know is actually relaxing. Like If I come home from work or classes or something, I'm like, oh, I'm so tired. I need to actually put in a bit of of willpower to not turn on TV or YouTube or something, because I find that laying there for an hour, watching TV isn't as restful as laying there for half an hour, just doing nothing.

[00:00:25] Evan: Hello everyone. How are you doing Aidan?

[00:00:27] Aidan: I'm doing all right. You know, I've been hard at work lately doing the job, doing these podcasts.

[00:00:33] Evan: Working hard or hardly working.

[00:00:35] Aidan: Working so hard that my mind just like shut off there.

[00:00:38] Evan: Yeah. A little malfunction happens from time to time might need to update the software.

[00:00:43] Aidan: Or might need to turn it off and on again.

[00:00:46] Evan: Whoa, wait did you plan that? We genuinely did not plan that. Did you plan that like yourself?

[00:00:52] Aidan: if one second before thinking of it counts, then yes.

[00:00:56] Evan: Holy cow, this is some high level banter.

[00:00:59] Aidan: I know, right. We just transitioned.

[00:01:01] Yeah. So how to turn off and on your own brain software, have a vacation or a day off or a holiday or something.

[00:01:09] Aidan: Yeah. That's what we want to talk about today because. It's something that's really important to do. That was something that I remember reading about in the 5:00 AM club was that it's so important to regularly take time off cause you can't work well, if you're completely burnt out, if you've been, go, go, go for a long time.

[00:01:28] Aidan: You need to have that time off to just rest and recuperate and just reset.

[00:01:33] Evan: Yeah, a n example, as to how productivity increases when you take a bit of rest was that when I was going to the gym very regularly, like five, six days a week. I tried dead lifting after working out the past, two or three days in a row and I couldn't even come within 40 pounds of my usual max. It felt so much heavier. Because I had overworked my muscles and I was like, holy cow, what the heck's going on? So I took two days off and then came back and then it was like, no big deal. It was easy. So your brain is the same.

[00:02:05] Aidan: Yeah, exactly. It's very obvious when it's physical. Sometimes it's not, you don't think about it in advance, like what you were just saying. But it's obvious once you've gone too far, but it can be a lot less obvious when it's mental. It takes a lot more burnout for you to start feeling it or to realize it sometimes.

[00:02:22] Evan: A lot of the time people don't associate it as burnout. They think maybe I just need more caffeine or something. And that goes for me too, some days I'm like, why can't I just get nothing done? And then I'm like, oh, I guess I've been working the past however many days in a row and been really busy and not taking much time to just chill.

[00:02:41] Aidan: And the other side of it too, is that it can be very difficult to properly take some time off. There's some really interesting stuff in a book called flow by Mihaly Czikszentmihalyi, which I think we've mentioned a few times, but I was stunned to find out we haven't actually done an episode on because that's one of the pillars of PERMA.

[00:03:01] Evan: State of flow Right? Is that what the name comes from?

[00:03:04] Aidan: Yeah, after the state of flow. And he was the researcher who first coined the term and did some of the first research on it. So it's this idea of being fully immersed in the activity that you're doing, where it's difficult, but you're also at an equally high skill level and you're just totally engaged and like losing a sense of time cause you're so focused on what you're doing. Some of like the best experiences you can have in life. Yeah. and or a very interesting quote that I read on free time from the book was that ironically jobs are actually easier to enjoy than free time because like flow activities, they have built-in goals, feedback, rules, and challenges, all of which encourage one to become involved in one's work to concentrate and lose oneself in it. Free time, on the other hand is unstructured and requires much greater effort to be shaped into something that can be enjoyed.

[00:03:52] Evan: I don't know if I entirely agree with that thesis. Maybe cause I have stuff that I like to do in my free time. But I guess it does involve stuff like that. Like I like going for walks or playing music on like piano or guitar. Yeah, playing instruments, it's easy to have goals. Even I guess exercising, if you're going for a run, then you can make goals for yourself. But I would say much of the time I enjoy my free time, more than I'm showing my work. So that's where I'm like, I don't remember what that one.

[00:04:21] Aidan: There's a lot to that. There is a paradox at play there that people say that they don't enjoy their work and that they want to have more free time.

[00:04:33] Aidan: But if you poll someone to see like how engaged they are throughout the day and how much they're enjoying themselves during the work, they're very like engaged. It's very generally talking , so we're talking like averages here. People are like very engaged, but then when they're in their time off, it's often just sitting in front of the TV or like scrolling and they're just more so in a state of apathy where they're not really engaged with what they're doing.

[00:04:55] Evan: Yeah I found for off time, I have to put in effort to have good off time that I know is actually relaxing. If I'm like I come home from work or classes or something, I'm like, oh, I'm so tired. I need to actually put in a bit of willpower to not turn on TV or YouTube or something, because I find that laying there for an hour, watching TV isn't as restful as laying there for half an hour, just doing nothing.

[00:05:19] Evan: Cause I'm like, if I do both half an hour of doing nothing an hour of watching TV I find that I won't be nearly as rested. Or like for instance, I find that sometimes going for a walk without music is much more like refreshing than going for a walk with . So it's like putting in a bit of effort in your relaxation time to make it, or just to not let your lizard, brains desire for constant stimulation to overcome that a bit and get some actual serene time that I find makes leisure time be more enjoyable.

[00:05:51] Aidan: Yeah. And I've come up with a few different strategies that people can do to try and get better leisure time. But I think we've gotten really to the crux of it already and all the things that you listed, be it like playing an instrument or. Or walk or things like that, or I think are all like very like high quality, leisure time kind of activities, I think.

[00:06:10] Aidan: So that would make sense that like you would actually be getting like a lot of enjoyment, but exactly, like you said, it doesn't always come naturally to do those kinds of activities. People think oh, I need time to unwind. I need time to just do nothing in air quotes, meaning like consume like TV or social media, things like that.

[00:06:28] Evan: That's what people say. People say, ah, just turn my brain off, but doing nothing is really turning your brain letting it just like sit and not absorb new information to pay attention to anything. Watching a movie is just not noticing what you're paying attention to.

[00:06:41] Aidan: Yeah, it's this weird state of like apathy and like pseudo nothingness.

[00:06:48] Evan: I think it is mostly driven by the base desire for a, this constant stimulation or like attraction to stimulate. I sound like a psychologist. I don't know what I'm talking about by the way, just in case anybody thinks that I do.

[00:07:00] Evan: Like another example is when I used to watch videos on my phone before going to sleep. I thought I was like relaxing there and unwinding, and then I would, and I would do that for an hour, hour and a half and then go to sleep. But then I found that. Just laying there for 15 minutes or even just like reading a book for 20, 25 minutes had the exact same relaxation effect just much more quickly and then I slept much better and it was just more efficient and stuff. So even though we can justify oh yeah, it helps me like unwind or something. And I even do that too. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I just want to watch the video. Like it helps me like unwind or something like it doesn't really

[00:07:37] Aidan: and there are much better things that you can do with your free time. Like having some of that time is fine, but you don't want to just waste away.

[00:07:44] Evan: I thought about that a lot because. Maybe six months ago, seven months ago. I was just like, oh, I want to relax. And then I looked and saw my phone is pretty much dead. I'm like, oh no. And then I'm like, wait a minute. Why do I need my phone to just relax and chill and do now?

[00:07:59] Aidan: Yeah, definitely. So shall we get into some things that you can do? I put together a few different thoughts, both of things to do things not to do. And we can just go through them. I dunno, if you had any ideas or things you wanted to.

[00:08:14] Evan: I had some. Things more like observations about having an off day or holiday or something like that. I didn't have any actual like research or anything. I just said one tip for if you're on your off day or your weekend, or even if it's just you're done work for the day.

[00:08:32] Evan: So it's five o'clock or something. One thing that I. I do often on, but I started again recently and realized that it helps like clear my mind is just having a sheet in my pocket, like a sheet of paper or a sticky note and just writing on it any tasks I thought of that needed to be done for the next day.

[00:08:49] Evan: If I was like, oh yeah, in three days I have that report due that I haven't started on. Instead of just thinking about it, I'll just write it down on the sheet and so at the beginning of the work day, the next day I'll look at it and be like, oh yeah, I need to do this. Instead of having to constantly think about it and just keep it in the forefront. Forefront of my thoughts. Is that a word that. Did I just make up a word forefront.

[00:09:11] Aidan: No, that's good, but yeah, that is an excellent tip

[00:09:14] Evan: Take stuff out of your brain and put it on the paper.

[00:09:17] Aidan: Yeah. You can't always stop the thoughts from coming up about work. It can be stressful or the ideas just come to you at random times. That's like the dissociative thinking process, right? What your brain does when you're not actively thinking about a problem is that it'll just keep on thinking about it in more creative ways in the background and keep coming up with ideas. So you don't want to actively be trying to think, but you still want to capture those ideas and not just be stressed about, about it. If you're going to forget. So like having a piece of paper like that, that is fantastic.

[00:09:46] Evan: I often have a notebook in my pocket actually just cause the app nice to like, if you think of something and be like, oh, I need this for, I need to know this for later. Oh, this will be useful. When I get home, take the chicken out of the fridge. Then just writing it down and then just periodically looking at the notebook and be like, oh Yeah. I have this.

[00:10:02] Aidan: Yeah, Yeah, that's good. That is a very good habit.

[00:10:05] Evan: pretty much the other stuff I have is pretty much just like how, after you feel more relaxed after holiday or have been taking care of your body, like sleeping well, eating, well, like going outside and stuff for a long period of time. I find those are the times when you work the best. Not when you've been grinding yourself down for the past, like 10 days or something. So what is your actual research tidbits?

[00:10:30] Aidan: Yeah, I know this is exciting. I feel like I'm finally getting to a point where I have a lot of good sources and like knowledge at the ready. Like I have four books here in front of me that I've been referencing for this. So it's whoa, dude. Knowledge is the exciting part of spending a few years researching these topics. I just have stuff ready to go.

[00:10:50] Evan: Did you ever just like knowledge.

[00:10:52] Aidan: Bruh. I do. I do. In fact, half of them are Cal Newport, which is of course,

[00:10:57] Evan: Only half?

[00:10:58] Aidan: Only half weirdly. Yeah.

[00:11:00] Aidan: Yeah, I know. Right. I'm sure he'll get back. Or maybe I'm just, I was just missing a few of the other ones.

[00:11:06] Evan: Definitely.

[00:11:07] Evan: There is nothing. Cal does not know.

[00:11:09] Aidan: But the first. Strategy. I think really the fundamental and really like most basic thing that I could think of was to maintain your health. Just cause it's your day off, it doesn't mean you stop being a human being with a physical body.

[00:11:23] Evan: I actually transcend the physical plane and Astral project on my off days. It's very relaxing.

[00:11:30] Aidan: Honestly, that does sound great. But unfortunately for everyone else who isn't Evan and has to stay with their bodies on their day off, you still got to maintain it.

[00:11:40] Evan: I actually move into the spirit plane on my day off.

[00:11:43] Aidan: That does seem relaxing,

[00:11:45] Evan: Yeah W would that's good advice for literally any topic, maintain your own health, because even if it made you less productive, still worth it. But so I guess it would be like staying up way too late and not getting enough sleep or eating food, or not going anywhere, just laying down the whole day, even if you're not That tired, like

[00:12:05] Aidan: That was exactly it. Yep. Just those three pillars of health. That was pretty much exactly what I had. Keep your same sleep routine. Get some exercise. Exercise is always great. Boosts your mood for what? Up to 12 hours after you do it. I think.

[00:12:19] Evan: Wow.

[00:12:20] Aidan: Don't remember the source off the top of my head on that. So with a grain of salt, but I think it's something like that. That'll boost your mood for basically like the rest of the day. So having some exercise on your day off. And also for people who are like, I'm too busy to exercise during a regular work day it's also a great time.

[00:12:38] Evan: Yeah exactly your off day, then you can, I dunno, do that long bicycle ride you've been wanting to do or go on the hike you've been wanting to do or something like that.

[00:12:47] Aidan: Yeah. Or do some yoga Or something.

[00:12:49] Evan: Go to the gym because they're open again and dead lift like an absolute animal

[00:12:53] Aidan: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:12:55] Evan: And then do some yoga.

[00:12:56] Aidan: And also of course food I'm not going to be mad at someone for adulting a bit on their day off, but like bad food does often make you feel bad.

[00:13:04] Evan: Or just like going a whole day without eating any fruit of edge, you might

[00:13:07] Aidan: Yeah. So healthy habits actually feel good. So that is just, a pro tip that comes up in, I think every episode of the podcast, but still applies.

[00:13:17] Evan: It's basically a rephrasing of virtue is done reward.

[00:13:20] Aidan: Well, there is an actual reward to it. Isn't there that like doing all these good habits does actually make you feel.

[00:13:27] Evan: Yeah, that's true. I guess

[00:13:28] Aidan: Like it has that like physiological effect,

[00:13:31] Evan: One of potentially multiple rewards.

[00:13:34] Aidan: Very good. Very good. Yeah. I'm not going to tell someone to be unvirtuous on their day off, unless it's a day off from virtue

[00:13:40] Evan: No coveting your neighbor's ox on your day off.

[00:13:43] Aidan: Yeah. We're watching you. Okay. So that was the first point I had. And then the second one we've actually really addressed in the introduction there, which was to not spend all your time on mass media, it's not designed to increase your wellbeing. It's designed to make other people money.

[00:13:59] Evan: And it's it's Yeah, it's designed to just be catchy and make your brain go like every 10 seconds. It's Ooh, wow.

[00:14:06] Aidan: Yeah. It's not designed to like really make you feel good. I'll say maybe gives you a little dopamine hit or a little like anger rush or something like that, but not increase your wellbeing. Like more broadly.

[00:14:18] Evan: That's what I, that's what I find with cause I did the social medias. I didn't delete my accounts, but I deleted them off my phone. Sorry to, if anyone's waiting for a reply to something and they didn't know, but I found, yeah, it was never like satisfying. It was just my brain is attracted to it. Because it's basically bright, light. Cool. Sounds whoa. It's like how, yeah. You wouldn't relaxed by going and hanging out in a casino because even though your brain loves it, it's oh, so stimulating, so crazy and stuff. Like you're constantly having to pay attention to stuff and you're not letting your thoughts just like settle. I find to get myself really refreshed. It was just like, sitting there and doing kind of nothing in a nice setting.

[00:15:01] Aidan: And that is interesting too. The casino example. Cause I think a lot of people do go to a casino or do some gambling as a way to relax or as I won't say as a way to relax, but that's something they do in their off time thinking that's a good way to relax

[00:15:16] Evan: It's a good way to spend your kid's tuition?

[00:15:17] Aidan: He ha ha. A sad truth.

[00:15:20] Evan: No, I, I, I actually, I've been discussing this a few times, but I I'm too cheap to enjoy gambling because if I put $5 on the table, I'm like, I just paid $5 for nothing. There's no way I'm going to get this back. I just sit in the bar. Yeah. I'm way too cheap to enjoy gambling.

[00:15:35] Aidan: That makes sense. I haven't even bothered trying. It doesn't sound like fun.

[00:15:39] Evan: Maybe it's because I don't have much faith in myself for playing cards, but it's, so it seems like a completely outlandish idea that I would actually get more money back, which is probably a good thing.

[00:15:51] Aidan: Yeah, I think it is. I can see the enjoyment in if you're like basically spending time with friends and you say, okay, here's the amount of money I'm going to spend on having a night out with my friends. And then it's okay. It, the amount of like actual money you get or loses irrelevant, you're paying for a night out with friends,

[00:16:09] Evan: Like I would do that and I would have fun. It'd be basically the same as going to a bar with my friends. Even, even when I was just being at like a buddy's place, we've played like $5 poker or something. Like it's fun. It's, it's more fun than a casino for me, but I'm still like, oh, I just gave away $5 for nothing.

[00:16:25] Aidan: That's fair. I feel that, but yeah, mass media not so good.

[00:16:30] Evan: Yeah. Well, not so good for relaxing anyway.

[00:16:32] Aidan: Yeah. definitely not so good for relaxing.

[00:16:35] Evan: And everyone. Yeah. Like I do it myself. If I'm like, oh, I just want to watch the videos and just lay down and justify it. I'm like, yeah, this is very relaxing. But it's not as relaxing as if I was doing something less mentally stimulating. If I actually want her. Yeah. If I just want to watch something for interests, then that's different.

[00:16:50] Aidan: Yeah. Or something more stimulating can be even better.

[00:16:53] Evan: Oh, like learning a song on piano or something.

[00:16:56] Aidan: Yeah, exactly like that. Cause to bring it back to flow, most like mass media, it can feel like you're in flow, but what it's really is, is a junk flow.

[00:17:06] Evan: Anti flow!

[00:17:08] Aidan: Exactly. Yeah. Because the state of flow, it's kind of, often described is with a graph with two axes. We're all about the two axes graphs here on the show.

[00:17:17] Evan: We really are. It's very nice for visualization. That is how my brain works. So it's pretty nice.

[00:17:22] Aidan: Yeah. I'm sure this is fantastic for an audio experience, but, we describe it.

[00:17:27] Evan: So look at this graph right here that I've got on screen.

[00:17:29] Aidan: But yeah, so the difficulty of an activity. And then on the other axis is your skill at said activity. So ideally you want it to be somewhere along the middle diagonal line where your skill is kind of equal.

[00:17:45] Evan: Like slope equals one?

[00:17:47] Aidan: Yeah, exactly where your skill is about equal to the difficulty, or even like the difficulty is maybe slightly harder. So you're like pushing yourself a little bit, but it's about equal to one is what you want.

[00:17:58] Evan: So would that explain why? I mean, I guess it doesn't take a genius to figure this out. People often like doing something just because they're good at. Like it feels, it just feels good to be good at something, regardless of what it is.

[00:18:10] Aidan: Yeah, I think so. It makes sense. Like when you're in that zone and you're like applying your skills, that's something that's about equal to your skill level. That just feels like inherently good. Like it's really engaging people to do.

[00:18:22] Evan: I can definitely see that. And that's Yeah, Why, I guess for most hobbies and stuff, people will usually drop it in the very beginning. Like they'll do it for a little bit and then drop it. Or if they get past the first stage, get at least decent at it. Like for instance, going to the gym, a lot of people will either go in January and then go for three weeks and then stop. Or if they like start to see some increased strength or increased athletic ability or something and be like, Ooh, and then make it like very regular.

[00:18:52] Aidan: Yeah, definitely once you get up to that point where it's like about equal, or you can do it such that it's about equal, where you have that skill level, it's much better, more engaging,

[00:19:03] Evan: I would say that that curve probably explains why I like going to the gym actually.

[00:19:07] Aidan: Quite possibly, actually. Once you've got up that experience and that skill.

[00:19:11] Evan: I wouldn't have if I went to the gym and like bench like 20 pounds, because it wouldn't feel like a challenge. It wouldn't feel like I'm overcoming a challenge, but it's like right at the weight where you're like, I don't know if I can make this and then sometimes you fail, but sometimes you make it. It's like the most fun.

[00:19:29] Aidan: Yeah. So that is like the flow state I assume when you're benching that, you are like totally and paying attention to what you're doing.

[00:19:36] Evan: I'm paying quite a bit of attention.

[00:19:38] Aidan: Yeah. So that, that is the flow state. And then to expand this graph a bit, if you're doing something where. Like you're a very beginner and you're trying to do something that's really difficult, but your skill level is really low. That is just like anxiety provoking. That can be good if you're really dedicated. And you're doing some like ultra learning type thing where you're like really trying to push your skills, but it's not the most enjoyable.

[00:20:01] Evan: Did you just make up that term?

[00:20:03] Aidan: I did not. That's a reference to another book: Ultra learning.

[00:20:07] Evan: That's an explanation for another day.

[00:20:09] Aidan: That it is. Yeah. All of these tangents that we're going to pick up another time.

[00:20:14] Aidan: So anyways, getting back to the flow, so that's like anxiety and then if you're really high, skilled, and it's a low challenge level, that's like relaxation. So exactly what you were, what you were saying when someone's really good at something it's just enjoyable to do,

[00:20:28] Evan: Or yah if the difficulty is to low, then it can just be boring. Like about like most people don't enjoy reading. Kindergarten picture books.

[00:20:36] Aidan: It depends on the story.

[00:20:38] Evan: Yeah, sure. If some of them are fire.

[00:20:39] Aidan: And then lastly, if you're like really low skill and it's really low challenge . That's that junk flow where you're at, like the slope equals one . And that's where most like TV and social media is at.

[00:20:51] Evan: Now I'm thinking so we have this graph, right? And let's say it's a scale on both axes of zero to 10 with the point (5,5) being the dot at which we make four quadrants, that would be the intersection of the four quadrants on this graph. Anywhere below five, five on this slope, one graph would be apathy. And then so flow would be anywhere above 5.5 this graph, like the top right quadrant.

[00:21:22] Aidan: Top right quadrant. Yeah. It's often broken up into eight triangles when I see the graph. So slightly more distinction than that, but more or less, that's like a good like simplified version, I will post a link to the graph in the show notes so people can check it out.

[00:21:38] Evan: Hopefully everyone is incredibly good at visualizing. They're like, okay. It's a picture of the graph on the font of the Y axis is send Sarah and a it's blue.

[00:21:49] Aidan: Yeah. I think that kind of detail is needed, but to summarize: social media bad, learning piano good.

[00:21:55] Evan: There we go.

[00:21:56] Aidan: Excellent. Solved your problem.

[00:21:58] Evan: Or if you actually are tired and just need to chill, just be there and chill. Just do nothing. Do literally nothing sometimes. It's pretty nice. Just kinda sit on the floor.

[00:22:09] Aidan: But yeah, that is point 2, just not to spend all your time on mass media of any kind. It's just not a fun or relaxing way to spend your time really.

[00:22:19] Evan: So what's number three?

[00:22:20] Aidan: That is to have a plan.

[00:22:22] Evan: Huh?

[00:22:23] Aidan: Yeah. And why I say that is that I find that it's very easy. If you don't specifically say okay, these are the things I want to do that would make my day off, really good to just fall into the time-wasting kind of traps. Like we were talking about, be it social media, TV, that kind of stuff. But when you say okay, these are my goals, it feels like you're planning out a work day or something cause it's like, Hey, this is what I want to achieve. But like it's things that will actually make your day better, like more relaxing in some way.

[00:22:52] Evan: am I myself? I fall into that trap too. What's the difference between work and leisure and planning out and regimenting my leisure, but then I'm like, oh, the difference is that the, these are the things I choose to do, which I actually want to do just for me and are enjoyable. So those are pretty giant differences.

[00:23:11] Aidan: There are reasons that people. These kinds of strategies for work and it's because it maximizes for whatever they're trying to maximize. For work, it's usually some kind of productivity, getting your job done very well, but you can use the same stuff to try and figure out how to have fun and relax.

[00:23:26] Evan: Yeah. how to get like, often, you'll have a good trip if you put at least a little bit of planning into it, like rather than just show up I have no idea what to do here versus if you beforehand be like, okay, I want to see these couples. Like maybe don't plan, you obviously maybe don't plan it down to the what's at what time of day, or like just maybe a rough amount of things you want to do. And then that makes it easier if you're just sitting around and you're like, I don't know what to do. Oh, I'll go to see this cool monument or something instead of just wandering around.

[00:23:57] Aidan: Yeah, I think exactly how much planning you should do. Probably depends on the individual. Some people would benefit more from more structure, some people a little bit less, and there is definitely something to be said. Like we, you keep on saying about having time just for nothingness, but having some sort of like set plan or set goals or set schedule to some level, it can be very helpful.

[00:24:17] Evan: Exactly, and having some time for nothingness when you don't want to do anything and also having some time to, or having some things that you might want to do when you don't feel like doing nothing anymore.

[00:24:27] Aidan: And also part of having a plan is to think about what kind of. Distractions or disruptions might pop up in your day, be it like people in like your life who like trying to stop it or is some way that like your work might want to reach you or something and try and plan in advance. Okay, how do you make it so that they don't reach you during this period? Or don't disrupt you.

[00:24:46] Evan: Ignore their phone calls.

[00:24:49] Aidan: Perfect. Or just set it up in advance. So like maybe they know you're going to be busy then. And not to disrupt you.

[00:24:55] Evan: Well, one thing, a lot of people admire work too, is if what is it, if they just, I think that even at work or something, but they're not on vacation, but they just don't want to be disturbed. They just make a whole bunch of meetings just for themselves on a, on their like shared schedule. So nobody can, nobody else. Try to get them to message or something.

[00:25:17] Aidan: I will sometimes do something similar. And if you have some kind of plan or some kind intention for the day afterwards, you can see the, how the day went. Did you do what you were tending to do? Or did you not? Is there a good reason? How do you feel about that?

[00:25:31] Evan: Did it evolve into something else.

[00:25:32] Aidan: Yeah. And do you want. Try again the next week, or do something different to make it better, you can start to analyze it.

[00:25:39] Evan: Like, did you wanting to in D but then you actually learned a bittersweet symphony by the Verve. That's a little music joke for you.

[00:25:49] Aidan: Ha ha ha, I understand music.

[00:25:52] Evan: Hey, you still did something. So that's something worthwhile.

[00:25:56] Aidan: Yeah. So if you still did something worthwhile, that's good. Or did you fall into some kind of distraction trap, or was there something that popped up that you didn't anticipate that you can try and anticipate next time?

[00:26:06] Evan: Something that would be very important for this would be to. Obviously not take it hard if you don't do what you wanted to do on your leisure time. And just remember okay, this is leisure time. I don't have to do anything. This is what I want to do. And so I'll try to do that, but it is not the end of the world if something comes up and I can't do this particular thing.

[00:26:25] Aidan: Very true. Yeah. That is good advice generally be easy on yourself.

[00:26:29] Evan: As opposed to work, where you have to answer to a boss, you only have to answer to yourself. So don't punish yourself.

[00:26:36] Aidan: Yeah. Yeah, that comes to people being their own worst boss. Yeah. That is having a plan. It can be helpful just to set that intention so you can live life intentionally.

[00:26:46] Evan: That sounds like some kind of mantra.

[00:26:48] Aidan: Probably is.

[00:26:50] Evan: Oh, I thought that was the book reference.

[00:26:52] Aidan: Live life intentionally. Now that you mentioned, I mean, probably I'm sure that's come up and that's definitely come up in a lot of books, but I don't know if that's just that that's not specific title.

[00:27:02] Evan: Okay. So point number three was

[00:27:05] Aidan: Have a plan for your time off. And going into four is to do hard things.

[00:27:11] Evan: So that you're on the curve.

[00:27:14] Aidan: Exactly. Yeah. You've got it.

[00:27:17] Evan: You know what this explains. This explains why my parents love building our deck so much.

[00:27:22] Aidan: Yes, exactly.

[00:27:24] Evan: Because like anytime that, well, my mom is not working in the summer because she's a teacher, but anytime my dad's not working, they're like, let's go continue building the deck because it's like the challenging activity, but they're both actually fairly skillful in like building stuff. And it's engaged. But like they're in the moment. Cause you don't have to, you can, you only have to think about what you actually got in your hands and stuff. So that's why they love building the deck. Cause I didn't really get it. I'm like you guys are like having the time of your life building this deck. I don't understand.

[00:27:57] Aidan: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I thought that would come up as well, because this also segues into the fifth point, which is to do things that are hard in the physical world, specifically, not like the virtual world.

[00:28:09] Evan: Also not just grinding Dota.

[00:28:11] Aidan: Exactly. Yeah. That it's more rewarding to do things in the physical world, because when you do something like exactly, like build a deck, now you have this physical proof from the real world that like you have done something that you have this skill and you've accomplished something. And it's like super rewarding to just be able to see and I guess I enjoy really with the deck, the fruits of your labor.

[00:28:33] Evan: that exact feeling is why I don't like working online. That exact thing. Because even when I was doing my job where I was going around bicycling around, I could see it because I would be in the neighborhood. I would see the dots on every single drain and be like, Yeah, I did that shit. Or like, see the whole map I've got in my hand, like a paper map, cross that and be like, yeah, I did this neighborhood.

[00:28:55] Evan: Or if, and then if they're asked the summer, if I drove around the neighborhood, I would see the dots on the drains and be like, I put those there. Versus like for when I'm doing online work like this, I find it very, like once I log off, like I have no, proof that I even did anything the entire day or like, even for the sort of bicycling job, like I would feel it in my tired limps at the end of the day, it'd be like, I feel like I really did something. So exactly why I don't really like working on the computer.

[00:29:24] Aidan: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then even if you are really like a craftsman in the virtual world, like some kind of computer programmer, like digital content creator or something where there are like, to an extent, real like tangible results, like you have actually created like an app or a video or something like that.

[00:29:43] Evan: You see the video put up, I did that.

[00:29:45] Aidan: yeah. That can be super rewarding and engaging. Yeah. It's not quite the same as the physical world or there's just like another aspect to it, a 3d kind of aspect to it.

[00:29:56] Evan: You can actually.

[00:29:58] Aidan: Yeah. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say or to express this for like your work life as well. When you're in your leisure time and you want something super rewarding, making things in the physical world, exactly like a deck is extremely good.

[00:30:11] Evan: Whether it's your work or your leisure or both, or something like having that sort of thing. But that's, what I find interestingly with that, playing piano, learning a new song. you could just play it, like you're just putting it out there. You have proof that you are doing something. Cause you're like, I can play this whole song. Now that a couple hours ago sounded like completely like witchcraft if somebody would play it.

[00:30:33] Aidan: But yeah. Do hard things. And those can be like physical things. Be it like exercise or yoga or music where it's like a real like feet of like dexterity or strength or muscle memory to do it, or like mental things. It can also be like poetry, philosophy, mathematics, are also all good. Also hard things that you can do. And also just generally be an amateur and try and enjoy things at a deeper level. Be like cooking, drawing, writing, building, fixing, sewing, gardening, designing, making, do stuff, just try things.

[00:31:08] Evan: This isn't that related, but just like doing things that have you can actually see the physical difference of this, I read this a book from, I think it was the 1890s or something about physical exercise. This old timey strong man used to, he lives on a farm or he lived near a farm. Anyway, I don't think it was his farm, but he would take a newborn calf and every day walk across the field, carrying it on his shoulders. And he would just do that every day. So as the calf grew, he would get stronger A weird example. It's like a backwards example of it.

[00:31:43] Aidan: That's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, I guess that would work, it starts off at a low skill, low difficulty and increases as your skill goes up.

[00:31:51] Evan: Yeah. I feel like it would increase a little too much. I don't want to pick up a whole cow. I don't think so.

[00:31:56] Aidan: Ooh, maybe, I don't know.

[00:31:58] Evan: maybe they had skinny cows back in the day.

[00:32:00] Aidan: Probably actually skinnier than what we have now. It's likely,

[00:32:04] Evan: Sorry. I went to the farm today. I've got animals on the brain.

[00:32:07] Aidan: That would do it.

[00:32:08] Evan: Got kicked out, trying to pick up the cows.

[00:32:11] Aidan: Jeez, classic Evan.

[00:32:13] Evan: But yeah, so those are points four and five yeah? And how, how many of you have

[00:32:18] Aidan: Well, I had a six tier that it was basically just don't schedule work calls on your day off. A pro tip.

[00:32:24] Evan: That would, that sounds pretty painful.

[00:32:26] Aidan: Yeah. Alas. But that, that was what I had for today.

[00:32:31] Evan: Yeah, I mean, especially number six, do not schedule work costs on your day off.

[00:32:37] Aidan: Yeah. No.

[00:32:39] Evan: The six tips you had, productive downtime. I guess you'd call it productive relaxation are tell me if I'm getting these right. And on any particular order, number one, don't schedule work calls. Cause what the heck, number two, have a plan. And then avoid uh, electronic media or like mass media like that you can read on your Kindle or something. That's probably. But do something that is like tangible in the physical world, do something that's difficult and I'm missing one,

[00:33:09] Aidan: you missing the one we bring up every episode.

[00:33:11] Aidan: Maintain your health.

[00:33:12] Evan: Oh Yeah. Maintain your health. This is, this is facts.

[00:33:16] Aidan: Yeah. That's very good. Yeah, you got them all. So that, that is promising. These are easy enough to remember hopefully, or to implement in your life.

[00:33:25] Evan: I feel like this is in the vein of a lot of stuff that like, nothing is absolutely shocking, but just like actually saying it out loud, you're like, oh Yeah, I guess I am not immune to this. I, it actually would be beneficial if I did these things.

[00:33:40] Aidan: Yeah, these are all things that like you, you have to be conscious about. Cause like we were talking at the beginning taking time off. In a way that's actually rewarding or like rejuvenating is difficult to do because your mind sometimes just works against you and you need that thought and prep beforehand.

[00:33:57] Evan: Like if, Yeah. If you ever have a weekend where you're like, I feel like the weekend just started in Sunday

[00:34:03] Evan: afternoon.

[00:34:04] Aidan: So, yeah, that's time off.

[00:34:06] Evan: How people are listening to This on their time off.

[00:34:08] Aidan: Maybe. Yeah, I think so. Most podcasts I listened to like on commute, so things like that.

[00:34:14] Evan: Oh, I hope you're not listening to this when you're going to work.

[00:34:17] Aidan: Hope you have a good day.

[00:34:18] Evan: I'm just kidding. You're not a loser.

[00:34:22] Aidan: Ooh, that's a very heartwarming turn.

[00:34:26] Evan: Yeah, You listener.

[00:34:28] Aidan: You can do it.

[00:34:29] Evan: But anyway, so I guess yeah, everyone have a very productive evening, weekend, and holiday. And productive as in feel very chill. So until next time. Bye.